Thanks for posting my message and taking the time to respond. My answer is just this: everyone who thinks that they have a point to make should study deductive logic.

Dear Jody. Your response is in relation to nothing I've stated to you. You still don't even answer the most fundamental questions I've posed to you: Why do you consider yourself "Jewish?" You seem to have abandoned our exchange.

The world then would be a better place -- not a touchy-feely "wonderland" but a place in which people know how to "discriminate" between valid arguments and invalid ones and how to apply this powerful, unbiased tool to their own and others' assumptions. I challenge you to acquire this tool -- to learn what "logical" really means.

With all due respect, I'd say that human beings -- who are distinct from, say, chimpanzees, know what logic is. And I note to you that "logic" isn't the beginning and end of measuring the truth of public discourse. Hitler had a"logic." So does Ariel Sharon. So does George Bush and Karl Marx. If you think pure "logic" will take you to some Heavenly point of Objective Truth where everyone on the planet can agree in absolute certainty, you need to think again. Maybe you can do that sometimes in the realm of pure science (although I imagine it's even, from an "illogical" spiritual sense, possible to challenge that, and "logical" scientific certainties are changing all the time). But the social, political, and psychological worlds are far more nebulous and subject to, yes, social, political, and psychological manipulation. That said, let's put all conflicting information possible on the table, so people can try to make fair sense of it.

And, again, you have not responded to anything I've said to you. Rather, you apparently just don't like what I'm saying, and suggest that I adjust to your system of framing the world. What I said to you before was "logical." Very much so. You are trying to adjust our exchange away from detailed substance to vague abstracts, distancing from what the root issue is: Jews, Jewish power, and what is reasonable in saying about them as a collective entity.

If your arguments really are valid (the conclusion must follow from the premises) *and* sound (the premises themselves can be proven with valid arguments to be true), then you have nothing to lose.

Likewise, the same to you. Except the Jewish community DOES have something to lose. "Logic," for example, will explode Jewish convention about the omnipresent, irrational anti-Semitic bogeyman and shed light on Jewry's firm reluctance to take responsibility for its own real history. But again, you've completely ignored everything I've said to you except to say now that it wasn't "logical."

You will only have gained a tool that lets you argue more powerfully without resorting to sarcasm, condescension, or name-calling.

I don't think I'm guilty of these accusations. On the other hand, you are calling everything I've said "illogical." Which is more insulting? That's a euphemism for "stupid," isn't it? If you are offended by my sense that your general position is a kind of PC (politically correct) fluff, I'm sorry. It's your belief system, and if you really believe in that stuff, you ought to be comfortable with your notion that you're right and I'm wrong. And it should be no sweat to argue your position, since you, presumably, are well-versed in its terrain. But once I responded to your first email here, you now bail out from reflecting upon my responses to you. That's a cop-out. Again, you say you are "Jewish." What does that mean to you?

Intelligent people then will have to take you seriously.

I'm sorry, but I think "intelligent" people can take this web site very "seriously." I think you have too, already enough to challenge it. The issue at stake isn't "intelligence." Nor "logic." The gap between us is social and political. i.e., ideological. I wouldn't call the things you've earlier stated to me to be stupid or illogical. They are just wrong -- flawed thinking. It is "defensive" thinking. You have a vested interest: steering criticism of the Jewish COLLECTIVE away.

You apparently subscribe to a range of PC platitudes. I have an interest in pursuing a critical investigation of that which is "Jewish." You seem to think that "logic" forbids this. I understand that you do not wish to be pulled into the "Jewish" community when it is so criticized. But you call yourself "Jewish," and have not responded to any of our earlier discussion about this.

If your arguments don't hold up under logical scrutiny, then you'll have to decide which is more important to you: the truth or your current beliefs.

Sorry, "the truth" and "my current belief" are the same. And "logic" leads me here. I don't see much logic in your assertion here that I am not logical. You're spinning your wheels.

You could keep believing what you believe, but you would have to give up all claim to being reasonable.

Again, madam. You accuse me, and apparently this web site, to be founded in illogic. And a lack of "reason." The reader of this web site may fairly ascertain, from the immense amount of information at this web site, what's what.

The following book looks like a good introduction to logic: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415166942/qid=1067341429/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/102-6559407-5996918?v=glance&s=books

If this seems like too much of an expense, I would be happy to buy it -- or the 'intro to logic' book of your choice ($30 or less since I'm not rich) -- and mail it to your P.O. box if you have one. I make this offer seriously. Why? Because I've already put time and effort into starting a dialogue, and you've put time and effort into answering, and I think that this is the best I can offer in return. Best Wishes, Jody

Dear Jody. Thank you for the offer of a book on "logic." I'm sorry, but I do not feel impaired in this realm. And, alas, at the current time most of my reading energies are spent learning more about Jewish identity, history, and power. Most of the books I read, even the ones I don't like and don't believe, still seem "logical." I suggest, however, in turn, that you read our online volume, WHEN VICTIMS RULE: A CRITIQUE OF JEWISH PREEMINENCE IN AMERICA. It's free, you don't have to go anywhere to read it. Hit the link above and it's in your lap.

You'll find plenty of "logic" there, but you'll also find a huge compilation of facts that fill the gap between us.

You state that "the best you can offer" in our little exchange is $30 towards a book you like. Think about that, what you're saying. That's not your best offer. Your "best offer" would be to reflect upon the issues stated to you earlier, which you insist upon ignoring. A dialogue is supposed to be an exchange of ideas. There's nothing coming back from you except "Read this book I like." Again, the beginning of a true exchange of ideas would be for you to honestly answer the questions I have posed to you. For starters: Why are you a Jew? What does this term mean to you? Why is it "illogical" to criticize the Jewish community?

Thank you for your time and trouble in emailing me.

To Jody 3